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mudpiegrl (profile) wrote,
on 4-25-2006 at 12:29am
Music: new pornographers, nada surf, belle & sebastian
this was begun as a result of a past entry here that begins "this is a rant about god". ServusDraconis: The one big gripe that I have with "The Three Religions of the World" is the arrogance of their creators and followers.
battlestarre: i keep thinking of stuff
battlestarre: omg me too
battlestarre: they all say that there's only one god to worship in entirety, but then say that theirs is the only one and tell you your religion is wrong
ServusDraconis: Well, I was mentioning the fact that in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, the idea that all living things are subserviant to man.
battlestarre: i hate the whole prospect of religion. it's interesting and definatly plays a huge part in our actions and history, but i really do only think it was something we created to feel like we arent alone.
ServusDraconis: But you're right there as well.
battlestarre: yea.
battlestarre: theres a george orwell quote...
ServusDraconis: And Christianity is a breeding ground for irresponsibility.

Auto response from battlestarre: All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
George Orwell

battlestarre: it applies to every arguement alive
ServusDraconis: Mainly because there is no idea of cause and effect.
ServusDraconis: There is wrondoing, but no equal and opposite reaction.
ServusDraconis: Just wrongdoing, and then...
battlestarre: yes, agreed.
ServusDraconis: repent!
battlestarre: more wrongdoing, in retaliation
battlestarre:'s just so you feel better about yourself though. if it's truely a sin, there is no repent
ServusDraconis: So you can commit all the sins you want, because Christ died for them, so he's already payed your dues as well as his.
battlestarre: yea, exactly.
ServusDraconis: I like to think that I'm an open minded person, but this is the general trend that I've observed.
ServusDraconis: And the more I read, the more this view prevails.
battlestarre: see, this is what i mean. even my friend, who is hardcore christian...the second person who defends me...agrees that humans have played the idea up so much and it's more worshiping an idea of selfishness than an idea of a presiding being
ServusDraconis: Oh, wow, I'm confused.
ServusDraconis: I need to actually read this posting instead of simply screening it.
battlestarre: the thing that frustrates me the most abotu that persons response is that they were like you're wrong, but im not saying your wrong
battlestarre: and they also said, you need to look more into if i randomly state something i've heard and have not thought about
battlestarre: even worse because i spent so long at a catholic school
ServusDraconis: Yes.
battlestarre: and while it's quite the coincidence that cultures tend to follow the same trends within their very different religions, it doesnt mean it's true.
battlestarre: nearly every culture in the world has pictoral dragons in the history, but that doesnt mean they're real or were ever real.
ServusDraconis: All I can say is that, when asked who the wisest man in all Greece was, the oracle at Delphi simply stated, "Socrates."
ServusDraconis: Yet, when asked Socrates stated, "I am not wise, but at least I know that."
ServusDraconis: Well...
battlestarre: :-). thats why he's wise
ServusDraconis: Dragon theory is a specialty of mine...
ServusDraconis: Exactly.
ServusDraconis: Which is why when asked about my religious beliefs, I always state that I am man, and such things are beyond my understanding.
battlestarre: hm.
battlestarre: i guess i have a very scientific view on things.
ServusDraconis: In what way?
battlestarre: and you know, it's strange because religion is a theory. science is a theory. math is a working theory. history is a story created with theory. life is a theory...and to say you believe so strongly is something so pliable, so subject to change...its so strange.
battlestarre: well, i see humans as being created just the same as anything else...and not by some dirt and gentle hands but by evolution, survival...because the idea is not just reminiscent in our everyday lives, but relentlessly pounding on our backs
ServusDraconis: They are all theories.
battlestarre: i see no creature as more advanced as any other, rather, adapted to it's surroundings.
ServusDraconis: And each theory, being molded of differing points, is tested within its own bounds.
battlestarre: a giraffe is no better than a camel because he is taller
ServusDraconis: However, theorists seem to think that their particular method of testing ought to be applied to all theories.
ServusDraconis: Indeed.
battlestarre: it frustrates me a lot when people talk about how humans are far more intelligent.
ServusDraconis: I know.
ServusDraconis: I've held conversation with animals.
battlestarre: and for the longest while, i simply believed that humans had, in fact, been regressing in their dependence on automation
ServusDraconis: They're very intelligent.
battlestarre: agreed. as've i.
ServusDraconis: I fed a snapping turtle yesterday, and was effectively communicating with him.
battlestarre: but recently i've come upon the fact that all animals have evolved and adapted to what they have. some are just happier with sticking to what they know works for them.
battlestarre: :-)
battlestarre: which is apparent everyday in the human world
ServusDraconis: All animals stick to what they know works for them.
battlestarre: humans have this consistant idea that innovation will progress them, but they still have incessent dependencies on everything that surrounds them.
ServusDraconis: I do believe humans are more beautiful than other animals in that they often pursue wholeheartedly things that, according to the laws of survival, don't work.
ServusDraconis: Yes.
ServusDraconis: It's a tragic beauty that only the best of humans have.
ServusDraconis: Though nature would call it stupidity.
battlestarre: and yet, i find it intimidating and admirable that creatures such as socrates and shakespeare and gandhi and dali and mozart have create such unnatural but beautiful ideas
battlestarre: (music and art and writing are just as much a philosophy as philosophy itself)
battlestarre: (or as i see it...)
ServusDraconis: Yes.
ServusDraconis: Indeed!
ServusDraconis: There are four areas of the human intellect.
ServusDraconis: History, Art, Science, and Philosophy.
ServusDraconis: History is the actual.
ServusDraconis: Art is the possible.
ServusDraconis: Science is the probable.
ServusDraconis: And Philosophy is the desirable.
battlestarre: and despite how i despise the insistance of progressiveness, i admit i am a part of it and contribute to it. i abhor anyone who simply lives only for themselves. but that is only appropriate for what we have been taught in such a young society.
battlestarre: i often wonder, in fact, believe that animals have similar societies, however, they feel it's unnecessary to actually build durable homes. they're intelligent to see that avoidence of natural disasters is impossible, and they're, in fact, necessary for the ecosystem to thrive.
battlestarre: i get the feeling they're laughing at our insecurities about the ability to live, the fact that we keep our weakest alive.
ServusDraconis: Yes.
battlestarre: and that we would attempt to sabotage ourselves while we live in such a pillowed world.
ServusDraconis: I admit I would do almost anything to avoid death.
ServusDraconis: Define progressiveness.
battlestarre: "life must be nice when you dont have lions chasing you ten miles til you drop from exhaustion." "yea...too bad they forgot what that's like."
battlestarre: that's the thing. is progress what humans have created? or is it keeping the creme of your species alive, creating a stronger, more resilient species?
battlestarre: it's a question i constatly struggle with.
battlestarre: constantly
battlestarre: society commonly defines "civilization" or the building of buildings and creating of interlocking residences and businesses as progress
battlestarre: however, while we are finding more ways to defend ourselves from the "wild", we're also ending up wiht mroe ways to harm ourselves
battlestarre: humans can be defined like the rings placed ceremoniously around a woman's neck in some african tribes. they build until they are hte only support, and if you took them off, the neck, which was once made solely for supporting, can no longer do even that.
ServusDraconis: Philosophy fascinates me.
ServusDraconis: Yet I try to leave it to the philosophers.
battlestarre: i dont even see it as philosophy. it blends in with sociology and psychology and science for me.
battlestarre: and you cant have any of that without history.
ServusDraconis: I'm just trying to help as many people as possible to live rich, meaningful, lives.
battlestarre: that's why i love learning
battlestarre: and art without history doesnt exist, nor history without art
ServusDraconis: I am the same way.
ServusDraconis: Yes.

ServusDraconis: Did you know that General Eisenhower didn't go to college, yet he read all kinds of books and educated himself.
ServusDraconis: And his mastery of the battlefield was gleaned from reading things like Thucydides and Caesar.
ServusDraconis: He believed that he was re-incarnated from warriors who fought and died in these battles.
battlestarre: no, but that's interesting. if we didnt need the fuckin' paperwork to get good jobs, i wouldnt go to school either. i'd rather learn faster tahn we do in school
ServusDraconis: Yes.
battlestarre: school is now purely an institution to instill behaviour that is appropiate to society.
ServusDraconis: I agree.
ServusDraconis: It used to exist to create a societal elite, but no longer.
ServusDraconis: Not since "capitalism" and "socialism" took over.
ServusDraconis: Now everyone is the same.
battlestarre: i disagree, to a certain extent.
battlestarre: everyone has the same ability to learn. honestly, i dont believe that the majority of people who have learning disorders really do, it's just they weren't taught to "learn" the same way the other half of the kids were.
battlestarre: i think everyone has the right to learn, despite the fact that it's a strictly vain attempt at progressing.
ServusDraconis: Yes, and by giving "everyone" that right, it drains much of the sustenance of the idea of higher education.
ServusDraconis: Because the masses take advantage of it, and pass the system's requirements without actually becoming more educated individuals.
Post A Comment


04-28-06 11:44pm

First I think it is important for you to know that I respect that you have an opinion that is different from mine. I do not want you to change your mind about anything. I simply feel the need to speak.

I think it is fair to ask if you have ever asked for the truth to be revealed to you, honestly and sincerely asked God (whichever God or gods it may be) for the truth to be revealed to you. This may be difficult if you do not believe there is a God but it does sound as if you are basing your opinion on what you “think” and what is to say that what you think is correct?
Also it concerns me that your opinion on Christianity is coming from your experience in a catholic school because there are things that they practice that are not what the bible says.
It is very obvious that I follow the bible, but I only have for about 2 years. I have been atheist most of my life and have considered Buddhism, Islam, and Mormonism, but have never gotten the reassurance and joy that I have now. It is not about the actual Bible or going to church or anything related to that. It is simply about a relationship with God, who I believe is my creator not because of what people have told me but of what I know because it is in my own heart.
I do believe in evolution to a certain extent. Science is very awe-inspiring to me and many scientists have figured out the specifics of the beginning, but I know it was started by God. Even the most knowledgeable scientists admit that they do not know what caused our planted to begin to change (I am a 2nd year college student, and I am double majoring in Science education (biology) and Psychology). I have also taken archeological classes and I have been told and ALL of the artifacts that have been found, prove that the history in the bible is true. Coincidence? Why have historians who tried to disprove Christianity, become Christian?
And if the first testament is incorrect and made up, then Judaism is wrong. If it is not valid then all of the philosophers who have quoted the bible are crazy. And all of the historical scribes and papers were false, and if that is false then everything in history in invalid.
Why did all the prophesies in the first testament happen? There is proof that they did happen, but most people are not aware of this. If there is proof of the prophesies, why don’t people believe them?... Well God did give us free will, and we have the choice to believe or not.
I doubt that you have read the entire bible (let’s face it, Christians hardly read it on their own) so I commend you for reading what you have, but unless you have read the entire book don’t you think it is unfair not to really get things straight? What I mean by that is getting all the possible information together before making a decision.
You see, I believe that the idea of what Christianity really is has been warped. Many people think that (as I used to believe) that Christians are a group of people who are trying to convert the whole world into church-going, always happy, ignorant people who think everyone else is wrong and going to Hell. But this is what a Christian actually is: a human who knows there is one God and praises him for giving us mercy. I am avoiding quotes from the bible on purpose, but if you would like me to include them please tell me so.
Mercy for what? Mercy because every one of us has the choice to do what is wrong and what is right, and that distinction is put in our heart (according to the Bible).
You said I am telling you to believe what I believe, and I’m sorry that it comes across that way, because honestly if you find proof that the Bible is false in any way or proof that there really is no God I hope that you would share that with me please!

I know the DaVinci code is coming out and Brown makes very persuasive arguments, but his “facts” are wrong. There have been many books about his book, and you find Brown’s book in the Fiction section. The main character, who is supposed to be a historian, makes things up that have only evidence against the claim. I will not go on about this right now, but if you would like the actual facts that he got wrong and how and why I will take the time to share that with you.

You also asked why I am “hiding” as anonymous. I want to assure you that I am not afraid of you killing me lol. I do not, however, want anyone reading about my personal life. If you honestly want to read about my life then I will tell you where you can find it.

God wrote the bible. He not only told them what to write down, he wrote it with witnesses. He gave Moses the 10 commandments, Moses did not write them. They do not have human intervention, and there is proof of that. I’m sure you have heard of the dead sea scrolls which have been dated and compared to current versions, and the translation is perfect. Also human intervention would make stories change, and the message and meanings of everything in the gospel (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) are exactly the same. God protected the bible, it is that simple. He is all powerful and is in control. I have seen this in other people’s lives, I have heard many testimonials, but I have also seen it in my life.

“having us write his story is to the muses of ancient greece, eh? and that was about the same amount of civilization as the middle east in biblical times”

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. What I think your saying is, that is is ironic how close the stories are of the Bible and Greek Mythology. But it was nowhere near the same time period, were talking 1400ish BC versus 600ishAD.

Satan is very real, and he does have power to an extent. And he is very smart. He knows that if he only twists the truth a little, then it doesn’t seem so bad.
Example- you begin to kiss guys and so you think it’s just fine to make out. Since you are making out you might as well lay down together, and if your laying down together it’s ok to rub and take off clothes.. and see where I am getting. Satan will have you think it is fine to make out or lay down and your own free will takes over, instead of just making you think that sex is ok out of marriage.
So I know he had something to do with twisting belief’s just a little, and people taking it to far. I believe this because there are so many similar religions. Look at Judaism, Christianity (including Mormonism and Catholicism) and Islam. They all believe in One God, That Jesus did live, that Abraham built the alter that is now called the Ka’bah where Muslims perform the Hajj.. there are so many more similarities.

So now I would like to hear your view. And if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? I’m sorry if I am wrong but it just seems like you know very little about the actual history. I’m looking forward to your response.

And by the way:

I suggest you work on your spelling before you correct mine : )

(reply to this)


Re:, 04-29-06 3:40am

i'm actually only a year younger than you. i'm just finishing my first college year. you dont think it's fair to say anything before i've read the bible, but reading the bible would mean i'd also have to read the koran and torah and any other religious documents. i havent read the divinci code at all, and while his points are interesting, they're theorized from divinci's artwork, not the bible selectively. regardless, it plays nothing into what i believe.

oh, before i forget. this is a much nicer way than your first response, so thank you. i hope that next time you decide to respond to someone's entry, you would only give them that courtesy first rather than going through such a long ridiculous arguement.

i've looked at other religions...i discuss and question them at every opportunity i get. i've been through christianity, catholisism, judism, islam, orthodox, even bahai. all simply for interest. all simply for comparison. it's interesting to find that a lot of them are similar, and i will be the first to admit, although i dont necessarily believe in god, he has changed societies and cultures more than agriculture ever could've. however, in chinese, indian, english, scottish, and a few other cultures' history, there exists a dragon-like creature, as well as a few other similar "mythical" creatures. while these creatures play fantastical parts in the cultures "history", there is no scientific fact that they ever existed, so therefore, they never did, right?
i've always believed they did...or perhaps something that would possess the same magnatude of threat. there are perfectly pausible ways that they could've existed. so god has about as much possibility as existing as sir dragon and lady unicorn, logically.
we've also come upon the topic of satan. this is my theory/some historical theory: humans quickly realised they were not in control at all of their enviornment. how could they not? we're still realising it, even though we try to control it, but that's an entirely different issue. but ancient cultures would pray and dance and worship good weather and healthy children and healing family members. those things are examples of the things they didnt have control over. but what happened when the god(s) that protected and loved them were horrible to them? when drought or flood or fire came? had they made them angry? well, at first, yes...just as any human. you make your father angry, he throws a plate at you. that's logical, to them anyway, especially since we were made in the form of god (which is not just christianity, the aztecs believed that the gods crafted humans from clay and mud). but then, they decided that they sacrified for and worshipped this beautiful god and they hadnt done anything wrong so why was he angry? perhaps, he wasnt. perhaps it was his evil brother, the devil, who was jealous of the praise his loving brother got. so he wreaked havoc upon those who made him so. and so was the the beginning of the devil.

so my basic idea is that humans were not crafted in the form of god, but rather, we crafted him in the only thing we believe to be intelligent. humans. just as other cultures have crafted their gods in forms of the sun and moon (both of which revolve constantly, which means they would never stop protecting the people who need them) or of cats (which act as pretentious as kings, and the kings were viewed as a channel for the gods) or whatever object or animal they deemed worthy. but why would we do that? as i've said, because things would happen and we didnt have control. but also, if you had a small, unknown object in your hand, you would say, "what is it?" humans knew what they were though. "why do i have it? what does it do?" they figured out that they worked, ate, slept, birthed, bathed, farmed, slaughtered. "what is it made of? how is it made?" therein lies a perfect reason for god. here is where so many creation stories are born.

then there are the stories, like hte flood story. perhaps there was a giant flood. it's entirely possible. scientifically, mass amounts of ice could've melted...or something else. but possible. would you disagree that books were written in the fifties that expressed the russians as a threat? of course there were. it doesnt mean it was really a threat, but people were genuinely afraid of such and so it was written about. so if you're afraid of god drowning you nad you're not having any way out, because, by the time you understand what sin is, you're already in over your head, you're going to do your best to be a good kid. why would that be though? the answer lies in society. it's incredibly easy to begin a taboo within a society. arabs refuse to eat pigs for a practical reason: at one time, they were rabid with disease and eating the meat generally meant you'd be infected as well. but what about our taboos in america? why is it bad for a girl to have hairy armpits if it's natural? or for someone to fart? why cant people pee on the side of the road, or walk naked, when in fact, that is natural...and dogs do it all the time? why is sex taboo? the last one and nudity are huge religious concerns as well as a crime fears. people are afraid of pedofilia and rape, which would probably be better if people did not outwardly abhor sex so much. it's bad for someone to fart because it smells. it's not something pleasant, and so humans dont like it (also another topic). as for the hairy armpits...why...simply so that women are smooth and soft, as they're supposed to be. but why. there is no reason, really. it's not a coincidence it's there, right? so it's clear that it's not only easy to create a taboo, but it goes a positive way as well. so now we have a reason we're here, as well as a reason to be good. and that pretty much describes why we have food and why there are miracles...not by our own accord, but by that which also bore us and allowed us to survive despite our sins.

"They do not have human intervention, and there is proof of that." just how? the dead sea scrolls were probably written by humans, in (im not sure, but i believe) sanskript. so were trade records. so god was trading across the mediterranean as well? as far as god protecting the bible...we're constantly preserving those things that are precious to us. unchanged. despite how modern the example, how simple it would be to change the video in which dr. king speaks of his dream remains the same as the day it was taped in '63 (? sorry im not being's two am and i dont feel like looking it up to be sure). or for us to change divinci's paintings in favour of god and christianity. or shakespeare. the reason we dont is because they're considered life-altering and vital to our history and ideals. changing the bible or the general idea of god would be exactly the same. however, you have something like the gettysburg address, where lincoln spoke and people loved they asked him to repeat it...but he knew he didnt get it right the second time...but he wrote it down anyway. so even if you believe in jesus, it's tough to write that frickin' fast and keep up every word that is spoken. and i dont know if you've ever tried to take down what someone's saying, but i know when i do, i change words or order to make it more logical in sentence structure. i dont disagree that there are things in the bible that are true, as i have mentioned before about the russians. or how so many books, like tom sawyer, have words like "nigger" in them, or how the musical "ragtime" has a few lines to houdini "warn the duke". they may not be appropriate or understandable now, but at the time, they were very real and understandable. just as the bible would be. the reason we consider things art (which i do consider the bible, koran, torah and all other books that are part history, part belief) is because they're simply that. history and belief and art. in fact, any piece of art is idea, ideal, current event, and vision. divinci's last supper is not a direct recording of it; hell, it was 14 centuries later. but it's his painting, which was grand, a recording of beliefs at the time, as well as his opinion. that's why i dont find it proof, although it's quite interesting.

alright, next then...cuz i quite killed that one...

straight out, i abhor marriage. i've been to so many weddings (i work as a wedding photographer's assisstant) and the tradtions are gender biased out the wazoo. women are still "given" from the leading male in her household to her husband. not only such, but "marriage" is a legal document. marriage is the agreement between two people, bound by the love and compassion they have created. the people there, including the priest or judge, are solely witnesses. god would then, also be a witness, in my opinion. it's also a step where you legally sign a paper, and sign a paper to undo said agreement. it's for taxes and health benefits and child custody and legal, legal, legal... marriage, in my opinion, does not need to be in a church or with anyone there. i dont think even god needs to be involved, because, just the same, the president or the governor doesnt really need to be involved either. so sex before proper marriage doesnt feel valid to me. but, again, that's my opinion and fails as an arguement for anything.

as for sinning in general, if god had control of our fate, he would guide us and keep us from that which is dangerous. he would not be so cruel as to give us the illusion of control of ourselves. then he would be a cruel god, and as most believe, he is not. ah, the devil gives us temptation, but even our mothers, who could love no one more than their children, cannot protect us from that which we find in the presence of others.

and i dont want you to believe that i have never even tried to believe in god, because i have. that's mostly where all my opinions came from. i used to pray, but they felt so empty...and they'd never be for anything irrational, because, as my school and church taught me relentlessly, god can make miracles but he cant destroy everything else for you because he has other people to take care of as well...which is a very logical and understandable thing...but you plan to give your kids the best, and if anything is possible, the wave would not get smaller on the other side when the first needed more, but rather, more would be created for the first. do you see what im saying? by observing the constants in our world, we see what has been done and what has not changed. just because ireland had a drought, it did not flood before they died. and innocent children and babies died, free of sin...but why? the devil has never been documented to have the kind of control, perhaps to make a parent eat the child, but not to have the child die without reason.

so that's most of my opinion...i could probably go on, but it's two forty and i have to get up to go to work in the am, so sweet dreams, and good night, sir or madam...

by the way, if this is oging to continue, my names jorie, and the reason i suggested you hiding was because you didnt even have the courtesy to give me that when you have all my info at your fingertips. that's really all i was asking for, i dont even care to look at your journal. just basic shit, like how you found mine...and who you are...not anything vital.


(reply to comment)


Re: Re:, 05-01-06 12:28pm

You guys make this way too complicated for me. Anyway, nice entry Anonymous, and Jorie, I don't know but if we can, we should get together over the summer. I won't even mention the word "movie'. If I do you can hit me. I'll be more interesting. I'll be at your house.
:) Cathy

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